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Post by asatokagesu on Mar 9, 2009 10:47:04 GMT -5
[OOC: SOme of us need to sleep ] "I have spoken with them all, and in fact, there are a second, a third, and a fourth Dai Ming far to the west. The ones that call themselves Portuguese say that they live to the west of the Spaniards, whom control vast lands and populations. And the Spaniards border a nation known as France - or so they claim - who controls land equal to these Spaniards, as well as numerous vassals. But the fourth one is the one that I find most thrilling, and it is from the Dutch merchants that I have learned of them: A land known as the East Empire. They control parts of the entire southern march of their Holy Empire. And within that empire, which the Dutch bind to the northwest, and the French to the west, there are countless daimyo that serve the Shogun-Emperor that rules in their East Empire. And this is simply in their homeland. They speak also of heathen barbarians that came from China's steppes, or the gates of Hell itself, that recently ended their Great Empire. They cover lands even greater than either the Holy Empire or the Spaniards or these French men." "As for their own beliefs, there are some that follow beliefs not unlike Mengzi, or Lao Tzu. The men however in their land are known by many and innumerable names, and to mention all, or even many, of them would take up the rest of this day. "You also ask though, probably, Suehiro-san: 'Why is it then that Sanzang never reached these lands?' The answer is simple. They lay far to the west, and when he went south, the peoples that slayed their Great Empire stood between his place and these lands. These...'faithful' as they call themselves are heathens and demons by any sense of the word, if the traders in Malacca are to be believed: and our foreign friends are right to be fighting them."
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Post by scholar on Mar 9, 2009 14:27:15 GMT -5
"That is if they are to be believed. Many tales are too far fetched for any sense to made from it. This may just be one case of such lies, or such exaggeration. But if they are to be believed then by any right they should be wiped into oblivion as they wish onto us. Do you believe such tales Asato?"
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Post by asatokagesu on Mar 9, 2009 14:49:03 GMT -5
"If you mean, do I believe these Foreigners that bring Christianity...yes. Do I also believe their reasoning that these Faithful are why Sanzang never went farther west? Yes. Why, though, do I believe them? The answer to that is simple: They have no reason to lie to us in such matters, for if they do, they know that we outnumber them so incredibly that no number of teppo or cannon can turn us back, for time and numbers are on our side." Asato was confident of his reasons.
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Post by sparkingac195 on Mar 10, 2009 5:46:51 GMT -5
[OOC: SOme of us need to sleep ] "I have spoken with them all, and in fact, there are a second, a third, and a fourth Dai Ming far to the west. The ones that call themselves Portuguese say that they live to the west of the Spaniards, whom control vast lands and populations. And the Spaniards border a nation known as France - or so they claim - who controls land equal to these Spaniards, as well as numerous vassals. But the fourth one is the one that I find most thrilling, and it is from the Dutch merchants that I have learned of them: A land known as the East Empire. They control parts of the entire southern march of their Holy Empire. And within that empire, which the Dutch bind to the northwest, and the French to the west, there are countless daimyo that serve the Shogun-Emperor that rules in their East Empire. And this is simply in their homeland. They speak also of heathen barbarians that came from China's steppes, or the gates of Hell itself, that recently ended their Great Empire. They cover lands even greater than either the Holy Empire or the Spaniards or these French men." "As for their own beliefs, there are some that follow beliefs not unlike Mengzi, or Lao Tzu. The men however in their land are known by many and innumerable names, and to mention all, or even many, of them would take up the rest of this day. "You also ask though, probably, Suehiro-san: 'Why is it then that Sanzang never reached these lands?' The answer is simple. They lay far to the west, and when he went south, the peoples that slayed their Great Empire stood between his place and these lands. These...'faithful' as they call themselves are heathens and demons by any sense of the word, if the traders in Malacca are to be believed: and our foreign friends are right to be fighting them." OOC: you know, for a guy who apparently has spent most of his life in the mountains of Izu, you seem to have a vast knowledge of Western Europe... 'The Portuguese? equal to Dai Ming?' Hasshi laughed 'To consider them as an equal to Dai Ming is an insult to all of us, why i have conversed with them many times in the city of the Heathen Sea-Godess and their traders in Malacca and Shuri, and frankly, i don't see how a nation of sailors and spice traders can be considered an equal to Ming, though it has to be said, while the Portuguese control nine miles of Ming territory, to my knowledge, Ming controls zero miles of their territory, so perhaps there is truth to what you say Asato-san.' *Hasshi after regaining his composure, became more fascinated with the topic of the Spaniards, he also thought breifly of the Mysterious Middle Empire, and how the situation there parralelled his understanding of the situation in Japan* 'I think i've heard of them, the Spaniards that is; Weren't they the ones who got massacred by the island people west of Singapura?' Hasshi continued, 'if they are the best of the foreigners and even they couldn't defeat a handful of vicious natives, what harm could they possibly pose to us? i think we are quite safe from foreign invasion.' *Hasshi wanted to ask Asato-san a few more questions, but thought he had asked enough of him for now and instead turned to Saku, leaving Asato time to contemplate. Hasshi noticed that his latest guest was being rather unnoticed, and since he looked like someone who had something to say, decided to ask him what he thought of the Spaniards and Portuguese* 'Saku tell me, what do you think of the Spanish and the Portuguese?'
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Post by asatokagesu on Mar 10, 2009 6:25:07 GMT -5
[OOC: When these foreigners that trade the teppo and steel armour are willing to talk your ear off to sell them, you learn quite a lot. And there's only so much one can say about your own lands before needing to go on about others. That information actually is the sort of thing you'd get from a cursory discussion with just about any merchant or lesser noble during that period. So I ran with "common knowledge" as my upper limit for "scholarly knowledge" in the East - the general geography of Europe, that Erasmus existed, that Bacon was writing, those sorts of things were known of by the common and mercantile classes; even if, like Asato Kagesu, they couldn't always draw a map of Europe, or tell you exactly what the beliefs of Bacon or Erasmus were or what they've written recently. I know its a touchy subject to an extent, but you can't tell me that the Japanese actually thought that Portugal and the Netherlands were the only two parts of Europe in this time. Asato still couldn't draw a map for his life of these lands, but he's aware of relative positioning]
"I do believe that they were the same fair-skinned people," Asato said, before ending there and turning to Saku as well, curious what other people had to say about the foreigners.
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Post by finchy on Mar 10, 2009 10:27:16 GMT -5
Well Saku had now prepeared his thought and was ready to enter the discussion,
"My father met some Spaniads and some lived with our family one winter after there ship sunk. Therefore I know a great deal about there culture and my beliefs are now the message they bring, that of Chistianity. Therefore I think more of them then many of our contempary's who know nothing of the true religion.
Looking pleased with his answer Saku sat back in the chair ready for the next answer. He knew Hasshi was not going to agree with his opinion and he was eagerly looking forward to a debate.
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Post by sparkingac195 on Mar 10, 2009 10:37:02 GMT -5
Well Saku had now prepeared his thought and was ready to enter the discussion, "My father met some Spaniads and some lived with our family one winter after there ship sunk. Therefore I know a great deal about there culture and my beliefs are now the message they bring, that of Chistianity. Therefore I think more of them then many of our contempary's who know nothing of the true religion. Looking pleased with his answer Saku sat back in the chair ready for the next answer. He knew Hasshi was not going to agree with his opinion and he was eagerly looking forward to a debate. OOC: seriously, we CAWs seem to know a little too much about Europe... *'Ohhh, so that's where Tanaka-san's religion comes from' thought Hasshi, now contented to what he knew about Spain. Hasshi decided to change the topic to one about the Mysterious Middle Empire and it's parralells with Japan* 'Saku, Asato-san, from what i have heard about this Great Central Empire, do you not think that the situation there is much the same as the one in Japan today? i'd wager that if this divided empire were to unite as one nation, it could be just as powerful as Dai Ming, do the two of you think that if one of us unified Japan, it too could rival Ming?'
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Post by finchy on Mar 10, 2009 14:08:29 GMT -5
OOC: Well bearing in mind my character is a Christian it makes sense I should know of the culture the faith came from!
I believe that any nation united behind something with the Holy Lords blessing could achieve greatness. So if we were to win unifaction against a great Christian Emperor then no-one could rival us. The same could be said of this Great Central Empire you speak of.
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Post by sparkingac195 on Mar 11, 2009 3:54:44 GMT -5
OOC: Well bearing in mind my character is a Christian it makes sense I should know of the culture the faith came from! I believe that any nation united behind something with the Holy Lords blessing could achieve greatness. So if we were to win unifaction against a great Christian Emperor then no-one could rival us. The same could be said of this Great Central Empire you speak of. OOC: i meant secular unification, you know that right? 'Oukan, in the same way a state ruled by the Ikkis would be a rousing sucess in wartime yet an utter failure in peace time, i believe any state which uses religious fervour to conquer is doomed to peacetime failure in the long run. When planning out a grand empire, one must not just think of the now, he must look to the future, wouldn't you agree?'
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Post by finchy on Mar 11, 2009 12:25:26 GMT -5
OOC: I want to write this section up in my story so for purpose of this could I suggest that we're all on the way to co-ordinate joining up our forces for the big battle?
I believe God knows the past and the future and by trusting in him he will provide for the kingdom so long as the Emperor is loyal to him. Therefore by trusting in God he will give us the tools necessary to win victory or to prosper in peace.
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Post by sparkingac195 on Mar 12, 2009 1:18:12 GMT -5
OOC: I want to write this section up in my story so for purpose of this could I suggest that we're all on the way to co-ordinate joining up our forces for the big battle? I believe God knows the past and the future and by trusting in him he will provide for the kingdom so long as the Emperor is loyal to him. Therefore by trusting in God he will give us the tools necessary to win victory or to prosper in peace. Hasshi laughed loudly at Oukan's comment 'You remind me of Liu Shan from the Chinese classic of the Three Kingdoms! putting your faith in your God as he put his faith in a wizard!' *Hasshi was seriously beginning to doubt whether or not it was worth talking to Oukan anymore. He reminded him of those foolish Shinto and Buddhists he had met throughout his travels, and he didn't exactly want to be exposed to that kind of dogmatic ignorance he had come to associate with Shinto and Buddhists. He decided it was best not to say much for now, and instead wait for Asato-san, who had not said anything in a long time*
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Post by asatokagesu on Mar 12, 2009 8:34:15 GMT -5
"One can build an empire on faith and still be productive in both peace and war. One must merely find the proper balance of power between the master - through whom faith and martial will is channeled; and the servant - through whom legitimacy is given to the master and who deal with the mundanity of of a tranquil time."
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Post by scholar on Mar 13, 2009 17:18:03 GMT -5
OOC: Sorry... family matters and school work kept me so busy that I could not log on. That and my internet crashed yesterday...
''Putting faith in one god, or multiple gods does not have a way of working. While we hear those famous tales of some working. Sometimes also in mysterious and fantastical ways. I only use religion to guide my life, not to recieve good fortune, nor anything else..."
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Post by finchy on Mar 17, 2009 10:31:44 GMT -5
OOC: Sorry... family matters and school work kept me so busy that I could not log on. That and my internet crashed yesterday... ''Putting faith in one god, or multiple gods does not have a way of working. While we hear those famous tales of some working. Sometimes also in mysterious and fantastical ways. I only use religion to guide my life, not to recieve good fortune, nor anything else..." You say it does not have a way of working yet the Spanish sailers tell stories of a dominant force in this distant Europe known as the Catholic Church. They say that is power was built fully on the word of their and my God. If these foreigners can be so blessed by God then I see no reason why we can't?
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Post by sparkingac195 on Mar 17, 2009 21:36:50 GMT -5
You say it does not have a way of working yet the Spanish sailers tell stories of a dominant force in this distant Europe known as the Catholic Church. They say that is power was built fully on the word of their and my God. If these foreigners can be so blessed by God then I see no reason why we can't? *Rather irked and wrankled by Saku's blind faith, (OOC: and how he could get a word like Sailors wrong...) Hasshi was starting to work himself into a rage* If this Cathiloc Church or whatever it is that you call it, is so damn powerful, how come it is not prevalent in Japan, nor is it prevalent in Dai Ming, the very Centre of the world? If these Spaniards were Truly blessed by God, then why is it they were defeated by a single Ainu Chieftain whose ways in war and technology are far inferior to our own? (OOC: Lapu-Lapu isn't Ainu, just using a term which Hasshi and you guys as Japanese would be familiar with)
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